Wil Wagner Opens Up On The Long, Often Painful Road To Their Most Ambitious Album Yet

It’s been a massive couple of years for Melbourne punks The Smith Street Band. Their heartfelt and anthemic brand of rock’n’roll has not only made them one of the biggest drawcards on the Australian live scene but also found them cultivating new foreign fanbases as they’ve criss-crossed the world with likeminded allies, consolidating both their profile and appeal with massive festival spots the world over.

Since releasing their 2014 third album Throw Me In The River — which debuted in the Top 20 of the ARIA album chart and scored numerous award nominations — their touring regime has been exhaustive, to the point that it’s incredible that they even found the time to write and record their powerful new collection, More Scared Of You Than You Are Of Me, let alone form their own new label, Pool House Records, to release it through.

But on the flipside the hundreds of hours that the hard-working four-piece spent on stages around the world have manifested on the album with a tough new sound truly befitting a road-hardened outfit, coloured by some new flavours and embellishments in the way of synths, string sections and even choirs. It’s an ambitious new sound but at its core still a defiantly Smith Street Band album, with all of the taut arrangements, heart-on-sleeve ruminations and singalong choruses that endeared them to so many on earlier releases.

“It seems like we’ve been sitting on it for years,” smiles frontman and chief songwriter Wil Wagner of the new album. “I guess we finished recording it in the start of October — yeah, because we did a US tour straight after we finished recording — but for us, because of the breakneck speed that we do things, it’s been a long period of us sitting around waiting for something. Normally we’re, like, getting the vinyl on the first day of tour and everything’s super rushed and stuff, so to actually have a normal amount of time to do something has been great. And also I’ve realised how impatient I truly am.”

Fortunately, having a few months away from the batch of songs has allowed Wagner some perspective on the album, and he’s more than happy with the finished product.

We’ve finally been able to flesh out these ideas that we’ve had for ages and really sort of put all of those ideas and passion and ambition into this record.

“I’ve felt weird saying this in every interview but I love it,” he admits. “All of our records I’ve been sort of okay with, and then with Throw Me In The River I was, like, ‘Yeah, this is a step in the right direction to me being a good writer.’ Now, with More Scared… I’m so proud of it and so ready to start playing the songs live, and all my friends who’ve heard it seem to like it and stuff — it’s exactly how I wanted it to be, I guess, so whether it does well or badly from here on out, I feel that our job is done.”

When referring to “how he wanted it to be”, did Wagner have a specific goal in mind for the album?

“Yeah, for sure,” he tells. “A lot of that stuff is sounds and tones and those kind of things — we just had more time with this record than we’ve had with anything else. The first two albums were maybe recorded in a week, and Throw Me In The River was done over sort of three weeks but we did a tour in the middle of it, but with this one we had a whole month and then another week of mixing to actually properly dig in.

“There are crazy synth parts and a choir part and all of these things that I’ve always wanted to do but we’ve never really had time to do, and my guitar sounds like I wanted my guitar to sound and my voice is the same. We’ve finally been able to flesh out these ideas that we’ve had for ages and really sort of put all of those ideas and passion and ambition into this record.

“I think that that takes a few albums and being a band for a few years to be comfortable doing those things. After Sunshine & Technology (2012), our second album, came out and we started getting played on the radio and stuff there, a bit of me was, like, ‘Oh, shit, do I just have to write Young Drunk 2 and Young Drunk 3 and just keep trying to write this same kind of idea and stuff?’ And I guess with the success we had with Throw Me In The River and the amount of touring and work we’ve done in the last few years, we’re really comfortable now [doing things like having] a song on the album that’s just me all the way through with nylon-string acoustic parts — all of these things that maybe in the past we would have been a little hesitant to do — but now we’re, like, ‘Fuck it, that’s what we want it to sound like and that’s what we want the part to be played on, so let’s do it!’

“And we also had time to experiment with those things and, if they didn’t work, we could get rid of them and we had time to replace that part with something else, whereas in the past it was, like, ‘All right, so we’ve got one chance at getting this trumpet player to play this part and if they don’t nail it I guess there’s just not trumpet on this song.’ This time, we had a lot more opportunity to really flesh those ideas out and really get everything to sound exactly like we wanted it to sound.”

It seems Wagner really enjoyed this newfound approach of taking their time in the studio, which in turn helped take the stress factor out of the recording process.

If we existed in an era where you could make money off records, I think we’d be a five-albums-a-year band.

“Yeah, I love it,” he enthuses. “In the period leading up to the album, we jammed every day for five weeks — literally jammed 30 days in a row or something — and doing that and the writing and fleshing out the songs was so much fun. I brought like 30 songs to the band and we learned 25 of them and recorded 15 and now we’re releasing 12 — that whole process of being creative and us just completely losing ourselves in this process and not worrying about things was great.

“Because we do so much of the organisational stuff ourselves, I sometimes forget that we are creative — so much of the time is spent booking venues and organising vans and that kind of thing and it’s quite easy to forget that there is this whole actual reason that we’re doing this, to make this music. So, to just be able to completely and solely focus on that and just kind of lose ourselves in the project, I’d just do that forever if I could. If we existed in an era where you could make money off records, I think we’d be a five-albums-a-year band.”

The Smith Street Band could be like The Beatles at the end of their career and not tour at all, just spend their time on the creative side of the band dynamic. “Exactly, I’d love to!” Wagner laughs. “Although I figure The Beatles had a fair old budget by that point so could do some cool stuff.”

We know the band has been on the road for much of the last couple of years; was the singer writing at home in-between touring stints or was he actually writing on the road itself?

“Sort of both,” he muses. “I’ve been quite lucky as a writer in that it’s like my hobby — it’s what I do to relax. Especially if anything happens — be it a good night or a bad night or an exciting conversation or a horrible argument, whatever — my automatic response to anything is to sit down and write about it. I try to write at least a verse and chorus every day, and I try to write like three pages of anything every day, just getting words out and just constantly being in that motion of writing, always thinking about stuff.

“If one of my friends says a slightly pithy comment I’ll say, ‘Hey, sorry, can I use that for something?’ and write it down. I’m constantly always kinda thinking about it. I probably wrote about 50 songs that I thought could be considered for this record and then I probably brought 30 to the band and we whittled that down. I love writing — I have a rap album written, I have a big band album written. I just love doing it, so it’s not a chore for me at all.”

If I set out to write [with an agenda], like, ‘I want to write a Top 40 record!’ kinda thing, then I think a lot of the things that make people relate to the music would go away.

Even though The Smith Street Band’s ascent has been a gradual build over a number of years, the band’s recent profile jump seemed relatively seismic, yet Wagner doesn’t believe he felt any more weight of expectation during the songwriting process this time around.

“Subconsciously it might have [made an impact], but I think that so many of the things that people relate to in our music and my lyrics and stuff, if I started trying to think about that expectation, then I would lose those things immediately,” he reflects. “Like, I think that people like that it’s not perfect and polished, and that it’s relatable and that it’s honest and it’s personal and those type of things — I think a lot of those things would go out the window straight away if I set out to write [with an agenda], like, ‘I want to write a Top 40 record!’ kinda thing, then I think a lot of the things that make people relate to the music would go away.

“I feel like our rise to get to this point has been really gradual — there’s never been a huge jump when we’ve gone from playing the Old Bar to Max Watt’s. It’s been: we played the Old Bar and then we played The Tote and then we played The Rev — we’ve just sort of moved up by 50-people-a-venue kinda thing.

“I think that [weight of expectation] would definitely happen for bands who broke out on their first album and then they have the difficult second album thing where they’re trying to fulfil all these roles and you might not quite be ready. I felt it a little bit between Sunshine & Technology and Throw Me In The River where I basically wrote an entire record and then scrapped the whole thing because it sounded like I was trying to write a follow up to that album, so with this record I just tried to be as honest and as personal as possible, and if there were lines that made me feel a bit uncomfortable to say, then we definitely left them in because it’s, like, ‘Well, if that means that much to you then it would obviously mean something to someone else.’

“The stuff that is super-personal, that definitely stayed on the record, because I think that’s what people click with, with us, and that’s what I like about writing too. If I’m writing in a personal and honest way that could be slightly embarrassing if people hear some of these things on the radio, that’s what I relate to in other people’s music so it would be dishonest of me to write in any other way.”

I’m well adept at spinning my own bullshit into songs, but I'm not good at writing these all-encompassing songs that affect a lot of people.

From a lyrical perspective, the most notable aspect of More Scared Of You Than You Are Of Me is the vulnerability that Wagner exhibits, putting his innermost thoughts and fears out there in the public domain song after song.

“Yeah, I think that’s just sort of what I have to do,” he concedes. “I’m not blessed with the talent that some people have where they can write beautiful pop songs about nothing or about other people or about all these kind of things — that’s just a gift that I do not have. I’m well adept at spinning my own bullshit into songs, but I'm not good at writing these all-encompassing songs that affect a lot of people.

“There is definitely some real vulnerability on the record but I think that’s important, especially in the current climate and coming from a man, I guess. I like the idea that I do sing in a very vulnerable way and in a way that hopefully encourages other men to feel that it’s okay to be vulnerable and that might get rid of a lot of the problems that men cause in society. Having a lot of aggression comes through misplaced fear and misplaced anxiety, and I’d like to give a voice to that fear and that anxiety before it becomes aggression because that’s how I deal with it and that’s how I deal with those feelings. If I can encourage other people to realise that there are other ways to deal with those feelings before they get to a boiling-over point, then that’s part of my job.”

This forthright approach to his life struggles also lays to rest the easy assumption that just because things are going well with one’s band that doesn’t always correlate with things being rosy in someone’s personal life.

“Yeah, a lot of my friends kinda think that too, it’s a weird thing,” Wagner chuckles. “To be totally honest, the, say, year-and-a-half in-between Throw Me In The River and this record were like the worst years of my life from a personal level. I had a really kind of harrowing relationship that really fucked me up, and I had some really bad mental health stuff and people died — it was a pretty intense couple of years.

“But it’s a strange thing because all of my friends are in bands and I never want to complain about stuff, especially to them because they’re in bands that would fucking kill to be playing The Forum and these kind of things, and I completely understand that, so I never want to be, like, ‘Oh, woe is me, life’s so hard. I’m just going to go off and live your specific dream.’ I feel like such an asshole.

“But beyond just my own mental health stuff, which I’ve spoken about a lot, the last couple of years were really tough and making this record is the ultimate pay-off for that. I think I got through like a fucking Armageddon break-up and I got through one of those first times where you lose someone really close to you, and I survived those things and I’ve made a real effort to honour those people that I’ve lost in this music.

“It’s quite satisfying in a weird way: I don’t think I could have a worse 18 months than I’ve had, and I’m still here and the band’s doing better then it ever was and I’m now in a better place than I’ve been for years and years and years. I think a lot of that is through processing these feelings and getting that stuff out on this record, so I guess I should thank everyone buying it for the free therapy that it gave me.”

So it really was a cathartic exercise in this instance?

“Oh, absolutely,” he continues. “That’s what started me writing lyrics when I was a kid. I first got diagnosed with mental health stuff when I was like 12, and that was the exact same time that I started writing songs. It was, like, here is a way that I can express myself and where I can be super-honest and very personal, but in a way that doesn’t tend to make people uncomfortable or it’s just not coming to someone and saying, ‘Hey, I have this batch of really overwhelming feelings that I don’t quite know how to understand or explain,’ which can then be really overwhelming for someone else.

“So just being able to write about stuff in this way was something that I discovered from such an early age to be like the perfect therapy and the perfect catharsis, and it’s held me in very good stead throughout my whole life. If I have a bad day or a bad argument with my partner or something like that, then the first thing I do is pick up a guitar or just pick up a notepad and start writing and start trying to analyse those feelings and work through it — it’s hugely beneficial to me to be able to put these kind of feelings into words.”

And in turn those words help a lot of other people too, like a double win.

There are so many people like us just trying to do the best with what they’ve got, and the fact that I can help those people even in the tiniest way is hugely, hugely meaningful to me.

“That’s the best thing about it,” Wagner tells. “That’s been the other thing over these last couple of years when I’ve been having a really horrible time, it’s been juxtaposed by people coming up to me and saying things like, ‘Hey, one of my parents died,’ or ‘I just got divorced and all I listen to is Smith Street and your words helped me through it so much,’ — having people say that to me when I was in the middle of a rough time too, telling me that I was able to help them through these horrible times, those voices were so clear in my head when I was writing this music.

“It was, like, ‘If I can find a way to express this pain and vulnerability that I’m feeling, then hopefully those people who mean so much to me when they come up and say those things can harness the same energy that I’m working with and it can make them feel better and it can make them feel not alone.’ In the same way that I felt when I first heard the fucking Weakerthans or Why? or one of those bands. Hearing someone express these things is, like, ‘Oh my God, I thought I was the only person in the universe who thought that! I’m not alone, I’m not this crazy person on the fringes!’ There are so many people like us just trying to do the best with what they’ve got, and the fact that I can help those people even in the tiniest way is hugely, hugely meaningful to me.”

What about the sense of community that always seemed such an important part of The Smith Street Band armoury, even from the early days? Has this been harder to maintain as the band’s got bigger?

“Yeah, hugely so,” Wagner reveals. “I feel that especially here in Melbourne — whereas a few years ago I felt so intertwined and connected with the scene, I now do feel like a real disconnect. I don’t know any of the cool bands anymore — everyone had seen The Football Club three times before I’d even heard them; I was, like, ‘Look what I’ve discovered! Damn, everybody knows them. I thought I was cool for discovering this band!’

“I do feel like I’m not as much part of it but, in the same way, because we’ve done so much stuff internationally and we’re on SideOneDummy and Uncle M and now Specialist Subject in the UK — all labels who were exactly the same as Poison City was for us and what we want to turn Pool House into. These are labels who are based around community and work ethic and likeminded people, rather than being based around things like, ‘Who’s the best-selling artist that we can sign to this label?’

It’s really beautiful to be able to tap into this global community of likeminded weirdos.

“As much as I feel a bit disconnected to my hometown and my home turf, I now have friends all over the world with whom I can connect with on this sort of stuff, and we have this amazing touring community of bands like Jeff Rosenstock and The Menzingers and AJJ and all these people who I end up seeing ten times a year. The first time we played with AJJ, we played with AJJ and The Menzingers and Holy Mess somewhere in Belgium; we just happened to be crossing paths. It wasn’t even Antwerp, it was just some one-off Belgian town where our tours just happened to be crossing over — I’ve still got the poster, it was amazing!

“So you have that amazing sense of community and, wherever I am, I’m probably only one week away from someone who I really love coming through town to play a gig, and we get to spend time together. It’s really beautiful to be able to tap into this global community of likeminded weirdos.”

On the local front, it must have been even sweeter for The Smith Street Band to share their wave of success with bands like Violent Soho and Luca Brasi, bands they toured and played with for years and who’ve helped bring guitars back to the fore in Australia’s fertile musical underground.

“Yeah, of course!” Wagner enthuses. “Even just looking at something like the Hottest 100 this year and seeing how many more punk-ish bands have made an impact. I remember when we first started getting played on triple j, so many people would say, ‘You’re the only person with an Australian accent on triple j,’ or ‘You’re the only guitar band on triple j,’ — which of course was over-exaggerating — and I think so much of it is due to Soho and bands like that who sort of broke though and broke down the barriers. It’s pretty amazing to see how well the style of music that we’re a part of is doing — that’s really, really special to me. It’s great — all power to the punks!”

And now with More Scared Of You Than You Are Of Me about to finally drop, they just have the massive album tour to contend with, the band buoyed so far by the response in general (including selling out their first big Melbourne show in no time flat).

“I actually walked passed The Forum today and sort of lingered outside beaming, thinking, ‘Fucking hell, this is so crazy that we get to play here!’” Wagner marvels. “I think within a day we’d sold more tickets than tickets had been sold to every one of our tours in the past! The response has been bonkers, and the album’s not even out yet! I’m so fucking excited, and every venue we’re playing is like a venue that I’ve always dreamt of playing and, to get to do it with Joyce [Manor] and Ceres and Allison Weiss, it’s just going to be amazing. It’s going to be really special.

“We’ve tried to really up our game with these shows — we’re going to have a full stage set-up and stuff that we’ve never had before, and we’re working on getting some guests and other things happening — we’re going to really try and live up to the rooms that we’re playing. And we’re going to jam basically every day between now and those shows, so I really hope we’re tight by the time it comes around. We’ve been playing the current live set for fucking ages, so I’m stoked to add some new songs into it!”