Chouli & Kojoe On The Link Between Jazz And Hip Hop

The intricate relationship between the MC and a DJ is one so easily overlooked. Hip Hop’s origin once championed the DJ; we now focus our attention more on the MC. In this fashion, a producer too can, at times, be overseen, underappreciated or simply ignored.

With the digital age comes an all too easy oversight of composition. The bed in which lyrical foundations are laid upon should very much be of interest to any rapper that calls themselves an MC (where I’ll point out the M stands for Master).

All of this in mind, I caught up with celebrated jazz pianist and beat maker Aaron Chouli and Japan-born, Queens-raised rapper Kojoe ahead of their shows at Kaiju Hip Hop Jazz Project and Mapping Melbourne this week.

“I was musically trained in a traditional way,” begins Chouli.

“I had piano lessons since I was young, went to a music high school, played in orchestras, did my undergrad and masters in improvised and classical music as a pianist. Orchestrating music has always been something that seemed natural to me. Combining hip hop and jazz in a way that’s more related to traditional classical ways of noting a score and thinking about the colours when particular tones get blended just seemed like a normal thing to try and do.”

“Hmm, what is my style?” Kojoe ponders.

“I’m trying to find myself. I sing, rap, make beats; but I love me some good old New York style boom-bap. The solo stuff I do is different to the jazz driven stuff with Aaron. I even have some trap-ish stuff that you can bang in the club, but still with that NYC feel. I listen to anything, you know? Anything with a melody and a rhythm that gives me the bumps you know? I try to be as diverse as possible in what I listen to.”

Jazz has never really been a genre that appealed to me but I’m not sure why. The way just two notes on ivory keys can hold your attention (Still D.R.E anyone?) or how a brass section invites a compulsory uplifting energy. I think I’m guilty of this oversight myself and I want to know more about jazz’s healthy relationship with hip hop music.

“Yeah, I was never really ‘into it’ at all!” Kojoe admits.

“I liked it, I liked soul music, I liked anything that was good but meeting Aaron and this guy called Olive Oil really changed everything for me. I realised there’s much more to music than just rapping. I fell in love with the musicality of it all. If you compare it to sports and athletes, for example, rapping is like being in training. Someone who can actually play instruments and create this whole instrumentation for a rapper is like, in the Olympics!”

“I used to jack beats and samples, rap on whatever I wanted to spit on back then, but when I met Aaron I started all over again, I’m still trying to find myself you know?”

It’s often referenced that the foundations of hip hop were built on already established genres and cultures. However, throughout significant movements in history the trends, sounds, vocabulary, compositions and general musical exploits were also influenced by already established parties creative in the own right.

To say hip hop is unoriginal or simply ‘recycled music’ is naïve but to claim its creative qualities as whole original doesn’t quite grasp the entire picture either. Earlier I mentioned that I think to be a master (of ceremonies), one must understand the sound that they are rapping on. I know what I love about rap, but sometimes I wonder how producers get into beat making, especially traditionally trained ones.

“There are techniques involved in chopping a sample, making a simple drum pattern swing, making a loop not sound like a loop. That to me, are as legitimate techniques as ones used on a piano to get whatever expression you need the instrument to put out,” explains Chouli.

“It doesn't matter that the music comes from another record  in the same way it doesn't matter if Glenn Gould is playing Bach we are all borrowing something from somewhere, then using whatever tools we have to make it our own.”

So when you do find this passion, a need to explore an audible tapestry, how do individuals grow to become colleagues and collaborators?

After working together on a number of unique projects together I asked Chouli about the meeting of the two minds.

“I met Kojoe about four years ago. We were introduced to each other by the Fukuoka based beat maker Olive Oil. I guess I like him because he’s weird like me!” chuckles Chouli.

“He picks beats that most rappers would never try spit on, that’s super exciting for me and makes me work a whole lot harder. He’s also as much a Japanese rapper as he is straight from that golden era in Queens where he grew up. He's just a monster of a rapper.”

The ‘Golden Era’ of which Chouli speaks runs too deep to delve into now but let’s say this; Rawkus Records was started in 1995 and signed some of the most influential underground rappers in NYC.

You may have heard of Talib Kweli and Mos Def? Yep, Kojoe was signed to that fam.

“When I moved to NYC I was about 16,” reflects Kojo.

“I was just a fan of music and in ‘96 I wasn’t really rapping. The lifestyle was a hard transition cos I couldn’t speak English at all but I met my (now ex) partner Apani B. Fly who in turn introduced me to Jean Grey, Pharoahe Monche, you know the rest of the crew. I was next to some great artists that mightn’t have been famous but were damn good rappers and could freestyle for days. It was actually through My Space that Rawkus hollered at me asking me to make an album.”

I told Chouli about my love of Nujabes (look him up, you’re welcome) and my appreciation of how the artist so effortlessly makes the imagination run wild without lyrical content. Perhaps Jazz is a genre that communicates an emotional connection that needn’t adhere to usual trends in composition? Perhaps it was the use of authentic Japanese influence on the track?

In Melbourne we’re certainly seeing a cyclical shift back into instrumental composition. It’s yet to be seen if this cycle will continue in 2018’s rap music.

“There are lots of jazz musicians doing hip hop these days. It’s not really for me, most of it. I feel like we'll look back at a lot of these jazz/hip hop cross-over’s one day in the same way as we see the acid jazz boom a few decades ago. What makes this current project we are presenting at Mapping Melbourne different from current projects is that in this one, the jazz musicians will be being jazz musicians, the rappers will be rappers.” Chouli explains

“There’s not too much meeting in middle and I think that makes this project more of a jazz project really but, you know, we all come from somewhere. There would be no hip hop without jazz, no jazz without classical music etc. As musicians we are a part of a family tree. Who wouldn't have a better understanding of themselves as a person by knowing their own family tree? I think it’s the same idea for musicians.”

The band for Chouli and Kojoe’s upcoming show are somewhat star studded featuring members of The Putbacks, Jazz Party and special guest (and pRhymetime friend) Mantra. Make sure you get down to one of the shows, jazz-fusion will be all up in the building and it’s the finest you’ll hear around!

For more details about Chouli and Kojoe's Melbourne shows, check theGuide.