Referencing Your Own Life Through Song, Just Like Taylor Swift Does

Inside The Workers Club front bar there's some spontaneous renovations going on, but Vance Joy (actual name: James Keogh) is his usual relaxed, easygoing self as he pulls up a stool on the other side of a bench table. He's dressed simply in a charcoal T-shirt and is actually so good looking that it's easy to lose your train of thought while staring at his face. Keogh also speaks incredibly quickly, as if he's trying to get all the words out before his brain switches over to another train of thought.

While discussing the writing and recording of his second album, Nation Of Two, we reflect back on old school artists who would hire recording studios for the songwriting portion of the process as well. Imagine feeling the pressure as the studio clock ticked and racking up debt while you waited for inspiration to strike!

"I've been in one situation where it was similar to that, in a sense," Keogh recalls. "So maybe it does bring out the best in you because of that pressure. But I remember putting down the song Mess Is Mine from [debut album] Dream My Life Away, I went in there and I had, like, a one-minute voice memo that I'd given to the producer... and he's gone, 'Cool, it feels really good, and surely there's some awesome chorus that's gonna be attached to it and it's gonna be huge.' And then I was like, 'Yeah, I think so, but I don't have that chorus.' And then I went to the studio in Seattle with that idea, and a couple of other ideas, but I was like, 'Ok, well, these are the things that we have to work with, first day in the studio, we need to put something down,' and so I had a coupla things that connected it, and we made the song out of it! And maybe it gave me a taste of what it might've been like for those older bands back in the day when they were [writing] in the studio. And you do your best, put things together - things that might work. I remember leaving with that song and we kind of moved things around, just sticking things together, and then I remember being like, 'Oh, I dunno.' I wasn't sure at all!"

Released in July, 2014, Mess Is Mine peaked at number 37 on the ARIA Singles Chart, features in the FIFA 15 soundtrack, the American TV show Hart Of Dixie, Netflix original series 13 Reasons Why and the trailer for the 2017 film The Big Sick. So it's fair to say this song really connected with people. "Yeah, but, like, more than I would ever have expected," Keogh marvels, "and it's maybe a bit unconventional in some ways but, yeah! I feel like it's a good song."

But going back to how Keogh approached Nation Of Two, he ponders, "I guess in this album it was very much, like, just chipping away and [the songs would] just come in one by one. And then the last coupla songs I think I wrote over the last year on tour."

So Keogh can quite successfully write songs while on tour? "I do alright," he hesitates, "but it wasn't like a full, hectic touring year and so I think I started writing a song, which is called Bonnie & Clyde, and I started writing that - we started this tour in September last year and I started writing that the first couple of days on tour, and then just kind of filled in gaps of lyrics over that month of touring. And then at the end of that tour we had some studio time to record a couple of songs and I kind of put that into the mix at the end of the set."

Keogh spent most of 2015 touring as support act for Taylor Swift's 1989 tour throughout the US, some parts of Europe and also here in Australia. On a massive world tour such as this, we suspect there's probably a fair bit of downtime. "Yeah, we had a lot, yeah, yeah," Keogh admits. And he didn't watch Swift's show every night, did he? "No, no, I mean I watched it quite a few times," he laughs. "But, um, yeah! You had a lot of down time and you sit in the back of the bus and you kinda think you've got some ideas, and you get a lot of, like, riffs and little pieces of songs that you think might be something, like, 'This is definitely something, that feels really good,' or, 'That feels like some awesome chorus or something,' and it's funny how those songs - they get transformed; either you just start it, or you sing it to someone, and they're like, 'Oh, that's ok,' and you're like, 'Oh, wow! I was really expecting that to blow someone's head off!' And it doesn't."

But if there was a winning formula for writing songs, then everyone would always write hits, right? "Yeah, totally," Keogh agrees. "It's mysterious and like, yeah! Sometimes the lyrics you think are the cheesiest or the songs you're, like, the most shy about are the ones that people like."

He's been gaining some serious traction Stateside over the years and Keogh acknowledges, "We've done so many shows there and a lot of promotion. So I visit a lot of radio stations... You visit one a day almost; maybe for every show you visit a station... You try to keep on their radar, so you supply them with music or you try and get a song on their roster it's like, yeah! All that hard work, I think it helps. Like, you play a session for them and they might have a little competition that had a hundred radio winners or whatever, and you'll come and play two songs - that's the kinda thing, I think, that keeps those loyalties alive. Plus you have to have a song that they think is decent. So I think it's kinda like that combination of all those things: it's hard work, you know, music that will work and that's good...

"I think there are some things that will still trump everything, like, if you have a song that's just the catchiest thing ever and then you don't have to do as much legwork but, yeah! I think for, I guess, in our experience over the last four years, like, we've done a lot of that stuff and it's just a way of staying in front of people as well and, you know, the radio station will promote your show and so I guess it feeds into each other. But, it's good! I'll be going back up there this year.

"I think we'll be there for, you know, a bunch of months this year and we'll visit everywhere but, yeah! I think we're aiming for slightly bigger shows as well." Keogh describes his band's last US tour as "a kind of theatre tour". "I think the biggest place was maybe in Denver. We played to a 5,000-capacity room and a couple of theatres, which were about that many people. So I would be so happy to maintain that."

In our review of Vance Joy's show at Margaret Court Arena in April, 2016, we dubbed Keogh "a younger, hotter Paul Kelly". How does he like that? "Oh, that's awesome! Yeah, I do like that," he smiles. Is he a Paul Kelly fan? "Yes. I love his music and, yeah, I always find I go back to his songs and, I mean, I know he's got so many songs, but I think I know a fair few different songs - even some of the more recent ones, I really love. I really love the song Life Is Fine.

"I read his memoir and loved it... He tells such beautiful, concise, poetic stories." On Kelly's songs, Keogh extols, "They're like, 'Oh, wow, direct line to the heart!'" When told we actually see similarities in Keogh's songwriting since his songs are often like little short stories, vignettes or snapshots of a period of time spent with a special someone that turned into memories he holds dear, Keogh looks chuffed. As well as compiling notes in his phone to draw songwriting inspiration from, Keogh explains, "You can even read a novel or a short story and it can create, like... you get that setting in your mind. And sometimes when I'm playing, I like to be transported, too, like, I'll think of a setting and you can write from that place and it kind of gives you a starting point. And so... if a melody or a chord progression that you're playing takes you to that setting, like, you can kind of move around in that little world.

"I've found that before. Even if a book has put a little location in [your] head, then you just go from there and you deviate from their story, and you might insert a couple of details of your own. But it's that interesting little melding of your own experiences with just some other, like, imagery in a book or storyline."

We're curious to know whether he also turns interesting events that happen to his friends into songs. "I think you could definitely steal things as long as you maybe keep it elastic enough that people can kind of breathe themselves into the song," Keogh considers, before countering, "Although sometimes specific details - in Paul Simon songs, there's so many specific details, like the verses in You Can Call Me Al."  

Interestingly enough, this song was included in the setlist for his aforementioned Margaret Court Arena show and Keogh reveals, "I think we started playing that song because my drummer's a massive fan of that album [Graceland] and... my keyboard player just started playing it in sound check and so it felt natural, and we started just jamming it but, yeah! I listen to some of those lyrics in the song and they're very specific details, so there's no rules.

"My friend Ed [White] once said to me - he's my drummer - but he said, 'Oh, you know, when I kiss my girlfriend...' he was describing how he just falls in and, like, whatever he's worrying about just kinda leaves his mind and, um, I kinda used that idea in a song called Georgia. It's like, 'The way you kiss me will work each time'. So I feel like it's not necessarily [that] I'm taking exactly what he said, but the sentiment of what he was saying. So I think some conversations can be really helpful."

When told this scribe's favourite song on his new album at the moment is Little Boy, Keogh graciously accepts the compliment ("Oh, thank you") before recounting how this song took shape. "I was in Melbourne for a couple of weeks doing some promotion, I think it would've been maybe in, like, July or something. I was just playing my little ukulele at home and I just started playing those chords, and a melody started coming to me. And it really fell together pretty quickly, just the melody and then the story as well. It's probably the most autobiographical story I've ever had, like, the first verse is just about me falling off my bike. I probably would've been maybe eight or nine, but I fell off my bike and I chipped my front tooth and I kinda knocked myself out momentarily, and a lady came and picked me up... but, yeah! Then I went to the hospital, just to make sure I wasn't concussed or whatever. But I got a week off school!

"It's funny that I had never written a song [before] that had so many details, or personal details, so it was nice to be able to - I'm excited about that, because it's like, 'Oh, maybe if things have lingered for long enough they can turn into a song.'

"You listen to other artists do it and, even if you listen to like a big pop artist like Taylor Swift or something, you're like, 'Oh, I feel like they're referencing their life!' And I'd never done that before and, yeah! I can see how it can work. I'm really happy with that song, I've been playing it with the band in rehearsals and, yeah! I'm looking forward to playing that one live."  

A previous autobiographical snippet that Keogh drew inspiration from for a song was Riptide Motel in Queenscliff, where his family used to stay on summer holidays. Surely said motel has now put up a plaque boasting about being the inspiration behind Vance Joy's smash hit Riptide, which holds the record for most consecutive weeks spent in the Top 100 of the ARIA Singles Chart (120 in total). "I don't think there's a plaque there, because it's changed a lot since we would've gone there," Keogh tells. "I don't know whether it even is [called] Riptide anymore, but because of me mentioning that I got a Facebook message from the previous owners... and they were glad to know that there was a reference to their place in the song."

So surely Keogh at least scores a free counter meal from there if he happens to be passing through town. He laughs, "I know! Well, I think it's, like, a country house, I'm not exactly sure what's there anymore."

Looking around The Workers Club, Keogh shares, "It's funny, 'cause we played our first show, like, as a band - it was a short set, I think it was a 30-minute set - here at The Workers Club in October 2012... I was so green even in, you know, 2013. All of 2013, I think, I was just, like - everything was new.

"At that point, basically 2012 we released Riptide on SoundCloud and then we booked a date here, my manager and me, booked a date for October 2012 so I had about six months to get a band together and play this show, which seems like forever, and it is forever, but at the time it was like, 'Holy hell! I've gotta learn these songs and find a band!' And it was quite a big year of trying to put the pieces together. And so playing this first show was, like, the most nerve-racking thing ever. We sold it out!

"I think it was based on the fact that I'd put Riptide out and it had gotten around a bit - maybe through friends and friends of friends - so I think you try and tap into your friendship group. And so there was a lot of friends there, and people who know me, and friends of friends. But it was nice! There were some random people there that didn't know me so, yeah!"

Although humble, Keogh is certainly multi-talented, having played VFL footy for two years with Coburg Football Club. Even though Keogh says he finds "some parallels between sport and music", he doesn't think performing on stage requires the same sort of analysis. "You come off after losing a game of football or something and the coach might give you a spray, and you have a whole discussion and then you have another detailed discussion on it the next day or whatever when you go to training. But I feel like with music it's like, if you play a bad show it doesn't really help." If a show isn't great, Keogh stresses, "The artist knows," so rubbing salt in the wound is probably pointless. "Sometimes something's really elusive, like the vibe was just not great.

"I remember I played in Melbourne recently at the Forum and I didn't know if it was that good, because Melbourne crowds can be a little bit more subdued sometimes. And I came off stage and my sister was like, 'Yeah, that was awesome!' and like my manager went, 'Great show,' and I went, 'Cool!' And it's like, 'Ok, I'll take your word for it!' Like, I felt like there were some good parts, but you do look for that affirmation."

For his next Australian touring stint, Keogh is playing arenas. Can they feel a bit cold and isolated when compared to theatres? "I think it depends who are you are," he opines. "Like, I think that some artists can make it feel like a tiny little room, like Taylor Swift or even, you know..." Bruce Springsteen? "Bruce Springsteen just makes it really intimate. And I think that comes through having, like, a catalogue of songs - that everyone knows every song - and being a huge artist with longevity but, yeah! So who knows? I have much admiration for artists who can do that."

When it's suggested that changing up between-song banter can keep things fresh, Keogh offers, "I think even though you do get stuck into patterns, and I'm sure that every artist does it, I think that with Bruce Springsteen - reading about him: those moments that are off-script are the moments that he enjoys the most. That's where you get something authentic or something kind of exciting and different.

"So I feel like those things - I guess that's the thing to keep in mind is just being open for those little deviations, which make it special and make shows unique, and make it unique for the people watching. But also as a band, you're like, 'Oh, cool! I stuffed up a chord, but that's good because now I'm, like, awake', you know?"