The Paper Kites Felt Deflated While Working With Producer Phil Ek

25 August 2015 | 12:24 pm | Bryget Chrisfield

“If someone’s telling you that you’re not doing something you normally think you can do really well, it rattles you a little bit.”

The Paper Kites

The Paper Kites

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As we take our seats in the undercover courtyard of Collingwood's cafe of zen, South Of Johnston, one of The Paper Kites' keyboardist/vocalists, Sam Bentley, notices an object on the table. "Is that the Seattle Space Needle?" he enquires of the ornament that's part of the table setting. Turns out it is and we promise we didn't intentionally place it there as a conversation starter given that The Paper Kites set up digs in Ballard, Seattle for six weeks to record their latest twelvefour long-player with Phil Ek (The Shins, Father John Misty). Did the band have a celebratory dinner at SkyCity, the rotating restaurant in the eye (sorry) of the Space Needle? "There was never any 'we're finished'," Bentley laments, "so everyone slowly teetered off back home until it was just me."  

So basically it would've been Bentley enjoying some revolving 'me time' to mark the end of recording sessions. "You and Phil having a romantic dinner," the other keyboardist/vocalist Christina Lacy (who's referred to as 'Stina throughout our chat) chuckles. As if to prove he wasn't a complete sightseeing failure while in Seattle, Bentley adds, "I went to see The Fremont Troll by myself; it's a big concrete troll - massive - it's, like, holding a car and stuff... That was a good day, actually. And I found the Gas Works [Park]. Have you seen 10 Things I Hate About You? I didn't realise they shot that in Seattle, that's one of the places."

"It's a big concrete troll - massive - it's, like, holding a car and stuff."

"It's just for Heath Ledger, really," Lacy offers on why this film's worth a watch. "He's so good in that. He's amazing." She has a smiley presence with sparkling blue eyes, a somewhat unexpected nose piercing and natural-looking balayage. After a hard day at her day job in a kindergarten, the wine list coos Lacy's name and she orders a Shiraz. Bentley opts for "a French Earl Grey" with honey and milk. Then the server throws in a couple of freebie muffins (one sweet, one savoury) because it's nearing the end of trade.

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We discuss Bentley's songwriting technique for twelvefour, which saw him sitting down to write between midnight and 4am to test out the theory that these are the hours of an artist's creative peak. Our conversation then turns to Nick Cave, who famously goes into his office every day that he's in Brighton to work. Bentley enquires, "Did you see that Nick Cave doco? It was great." Thanks for the segue! There's actually a documentary in the works about the making of twelvefour. So how often were cameras in The Paper Kites' faces? "Ah, every rehearsal," Lacy tells and Bentley confirms, "Pretty much." Back to Lacy: "Coming up to the recording and then the first week that we were in Seattle." Bentley again: "Yeah, Matt [Cox, filmmaker] was there."

"And Matt, who was the guy doing the documentary, he was there with us for the first week so - I was going to say the only consolation, well, not the only - one of the positives of that is that we know him, which was really nice and um..." Bentley tries to help out, "Didn't feel like a stranger," but this isn't what Lacy was trying to say and she corrects, "Didn't feel like, 'Oh, can you stop pointing the camera at me!?' Which, usually, Matt would be like, ''Stina you can't talk to me,' he's like, 'You can't talk to me, I'm filming you!' 'Cause I'd be like, 'Hey, Matt! Remember that time that...' And he'd be like, 'I'm not here'. 'Oh, yeah. Sorry'," she laughs.

"He was good, though, because the whole point of doing the documentary was, firstly, because Matt found it interesting, but we were pretty, like, um, forward when we were talking about it. We wanted to do just like a candid view of making a record. I mean, I don't know if a lot is out there; there's a big band's making of their albums and that sort of thing, but we're not a big band. But I still think it's interesting for people to see what goes into making a record. And it's not, like, necessarily just an easy process. And even when we were having arguments about certain songs and what direction we think we should take, Matt was just rolling in the corner and you thought, 'He shouldn't be here!' But I was glad, as well, that he was still getting that stuff, because it's all important and it's all [about] everyone just caring about the record."

"I found it a little bit - and I still do, to be honest, even when the teaser, the trailer, came out. And I think all of us feel this way. In some ways I think it feels - like Sam said - we're not a huge band and in some ways I see myself and I'm like, 'Why is there this documentary about us?' Do you know what I mean? 'This feels ridiculous,' sort of thing. But then at the same time [turns to Bentley], like you said, it is interesting for people to see that, you know, we're not Coldplay making an album; it's probably a lot more like what most Australian bands go through when they're recording an album."

"But no one really sees it," Bentley confirms. "They're just like, 'That's a really great/or terrible album'."

"Can we make sure that I don't say 'like' too much? Don't make me sound dumb."

"It's funny, like, people will ask questions about the songs, or the album, and sort of say, 'When you are a listener...' It's the same for us if you listen to a band you love, or an artist, as a listener you get the kind of luxury of listening to the song - it's been through the ringer, you didn't have to go through the ringer with the songs. You just get to listen to the final product and it's so satisfying. It's a really different experience when you've been through the ringer with the songs. You get right to the end and there are some songs - particularly vocal-wise - that you just have this love/hate relationship with, you know. Like, I feel like that about songs on the last album [2013 debut States]. I'll listen to it and be like, 'Man, that sounds good, but my goodness! You were the worst [song to put down]."

"I'm sort of glad that we have something to show the whole process," Bentley concludes. "From the very start as well, like, 'Alright, this is what I'm going to do'. And Matt stayed up with me filming those late night [songwriting session] things all the way to the delivery." On whether the band have final cut, Bentley shares, "Well it's still not finished. Matt thought, 'I'm not sure how to finish this. I think I might come to some of the shows and finish it like that.' So I think that's what he's going to do... We do trust him. He's not gonna present something he's not happy with or something that's not interesting... We haven't even seen it yet, have we?"

"We've given him some guidelines. I said, 'Can we make sure that I don't say 'like' too much? Don't make me sound dumb'," Lacy laughs. Bentley commends, "You're actually a lot better now than you used to be; sometimes when you're telling a story I count [the 'likes'] in my head."

On the band's website, there's a photo of Lacy standing in front of a corner building that's so pointy it looks like a ship's bow. Bentley offers, "That's Chris Walla's..." and then both finish the sentence together, "Studio". "That was where Nirvana did their first record," Bentley marvels. Lacy adds, "A part of history."

"[Chris Walla] was there when we got there," Bentley enthuses, "just to sort of walk us through everything, and I was trying to like, play it cool. And he was showing me how to use all of these old, like, LinnDrum machines and stuff that I wanted to use on the record." Lacy nods, "He has a lot of really cool stuff." Then Bentley continues, "And in the back of my head I was like, 'You totally used this on the Postal Service record!' and things like that." Laughter all 'round. "Well Sam [Rasmussen, bass/synth] - the other Sam in the band - is a hardcore Chris Walla fan, and he wasn't there at the time." Lacy sympathises, "He was really devastated."

"Yeah, he was really bummed," Bentley stresses. "So I think he was vicariously living through me: 'How was it?'; 'how was he?'" Lacy laughs, "He is super nice by the way." Then Bentley commends, "He let us use all his gear!" "But it was a hard slog with Phil," he allows. "I mean, it was good, but he, um, he's an intense dude. I wouldn't say he's a perfectionist. It was more me being a perfectionist and him being like, 'No, it's fine'.

"That was where Nirvana did their first record … A part of history."

"But, like, vocally we had a pretty rough time this time, because normally - working with Wayne [Connolly], who we did the first two records [Young North EP (2012) and States] with; he would sort of let us sing until we got it. But with Phil, it was like, if you didn't get it - or he wasn't feeling it, you know, emotionally - he's just like, 'nah'. He'd shut the session down: 'We'll just do it another day. We're gonna move on'."

Lacy takes over. "There was this one night - usually we'd be gone by 10pm and it was, like, 8.30 and he was, like, 'Nah, I'm not feeling it. Let's go home'. And we're like, 'What?' And he's like, 'Yeah, nup, let's start again tomorrow. And we're like, 'Ohhhhh'. We're just not used to that because Wayne would be like, 'Keep going, you're going to get it. You'll get it, come on; it just takes a little while to warm up, go for it, get comfortable.' And we'd have wines and just really settle into the session. Whereas Phil, after four takes, would be like, 'I'm not feeling it. Let's go home. Let's start afresh.'"

"Yeah, there was that bit of pressure," Bentley agrees. Lacy laughs, "And we're like, 'Are we ever going to get it?'"

"It definitely smashed your confidence around a bit, though," Bentley explains and then Lacy considers, "I think that was just his way of working... And, you know, we would always end up getting it the next day... And he'd be really encouraging. If something was really good, he'd be like, 'Yeah, that's it!' You know, he knew what he was looking for." Bentley agrees, "Yeah, and I can hear that in my voice, compared to the last record. We didn't double the vocals like we normally would; when you do that it kind of disguises the imperfection in your voice and we didn't do that this time. It was very raw."

"It was a bit confronting, wasn't it?" Lacy acknowledges. "Because you'd be listening back to a mix and you're like, 'Do I sound like - can we sing at all?' [Laughs] Like, this sounds terrible! But then once you got it - and it's not that we can't sing, it's just that, you know, we were still warming up; I guess getting used to working with Phil. And I think musically, working with him and working with the vocals - totally different ball game. And once you get it, you're like, 'Ah, okay. We're on track; we know what we're doing'."

"There'd be times when he'd be like, 'Nah, I think we need to get him out of there,' and I'd be like, 'Nah, man, don't."

"He was brutally honest, but all for a great record." Bentley says then corrects himself, "Or trying to make a good record." Lacy approves: "Yeah, exactly... I remember one night we had a pretty terrible night in the studio and I remember both of us - not arguing, but sort of, like, you know; I guess my attitude towards people that are quite blunt and forward about things is, 'Well, if you're someone who is blunt and forward, I kind of expect you to be able to take me being blunt and forward to you'. And not in a rude way, but I kind of have that attitude. Phil is that kind of guy and I'm not going to just be quiet and take it, if I don't agree. There'd be times when he'd be like, 'Nah, I think we need to get him out of there,' and I'd be like, 'Nah, man, don't. Just ask him if he needs a couple more takes. Just let him do a couple more,' you know. This backward and forward banter - not of arguing, but just kind of like, you know..."

"Giving it back to him," Bentley finishes. "He liked that." Lacy nods, "He did. Yeah, he kind of respected it. And I remember we had this pretty tough night and we were walking home and there was a Fred Myers, which is like a huge 'everything' store. It's like a Kmart and Coles put together; so it's a grocery store, but then it's also a department store - all in one. Massive. You get anything there. We walked there on our way home and we were both in terrible moods, and I was getting a bit homesick, and I'm like, 'Let's just get a bottle of Australian Shiraz and a heap of blocks of Cadbury chocolate and something else as well [laughs]. So I think we got some beers and some cheese and bread. We just needed to have some things from home, and go home. I think we hired a movie. So we just went home and had our little sook while we were drinking and eating chocolate. And then the next day we were fine!"

Perhaps worried the producer is copping too much of a serve, Bentley steps in: "But it was good. He was really good to work with. [Faces Lacy] I think when you listen back to it, I understand exactly why [he was] pushing us in that way, because you can hear it. Like, it just... sounds bigger than anything we've ever done before so it's probably his influence... I think anyone, like, no matter how ego-driven or whatnot, or timid they are; if someone's telling you that you're not doing something you normally think you can do really well, like..." Lacy takes it one step further, "Or that you do as a job [laughs]!" Bentley finishes, "It rattles you a little bit."

As it happens, Ek wasn't the only producer on The Paper Kites wishlist. "I really wanted to work with Nick Launay, who does a lot of Nick Cave's records," Bentley offers, "and he was on the cards, he was like, 'Yeah, I'd love to do it'." Lacy recalls, "Yeah, he was keen but it just didn't work out with his schedule."

"But I think he would have come to Australia," Bentley ponders. "Anyway, I'd still love to work with him one day."

Their management encouraged The Paper Kites to email producers they wished to work with and Lacy remembers, "Even Phil: we sort of thought, I dunno, you kind of always think, 'As if we're gonna get them'. We thought he'd say no!" Bentley explains, "Yeah, yeah, well he is quite notorious for turning down a lot of bands. And rightfully so." Lacy chuckles, "Even when we were there! He'd be like, 'Ah, this band contacted me,' and, like, [he'd] hear a snippet of their song and be like, 'Noooo!' We actually said to him - after a while, not on the first day - 'Oh, we really wanted to work with you but we didn't ask you first up, because you're notorious for saying 'no'. And we asked, 'Do you say no?' [He replied] 'Yeah, that's half the reason why people want to work with me'."

"I guess he said he's at the point now where he knows his time is valuable and, you know, he doesn't want to be wasting his time with things," Bentley posits. "I think it's an integrity thing... It's kind of nice to feel like he wanted to make our record; for a songwriter, too." Lacy humbly puts forward that often it's all about logistics and then Bentley insists, "But it was still certainly flattering."