Hidden Records, Stage Anxiety & The Power Of Playing Live

2 July 2015 | 9:00 am | Mitch Knox

"Right before we take the stage, Josh and I are gonna think that same thing: ‘No one’s going to know who we are’"

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“We’re having digestive issues, you could say,” Tyler Joseph says.

The deceptively diminutive singer and multi-instrumentalist sits alongside Joshua Dun, his collaborator in newly minted pop-rap royalty Twenty One Pilots, the pair less than two hours away from taking the main stage — or, to be formal, the What Stage — at Tennessee's annual Bonnaroo Music & Arts Festival. This isn't their first appearance at the event, but it's their inaugural dalliance on its biggest platform, so they're feeling understandably nervous.

"There’s a sense of trust when you buy a whole record. It’s like, ‘You know what? I trust these guys enough to buy the whole thing.’ There’s very few artists that I feel that way about ... and to be one of those bands to some people is a really cool feeling."

He’s not being literal about his digestive problems — although, yes, Joseph concedes that he and Dun are “both gonna die, probably soon, because we just don’t know how to eat right”, so there’s that — but rather he’s referring to the unexpected place in which the pair have found themselves; namely, boasting a new #1 album in their fourth full-length, Blurryface, as well as nabbing high-profile spots as both festival drawcards and standalone headliners, and selling out international tours… that old chestnut.

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“It really is hard to kind of understand exactly what that means, to sell records, and to – not just sell singles, but sell something as a whole, something we’re really proud about,” Joseph reflects. “We like that the people who have either seen us live, or we’ve played in front of them and made a fan out of them or whatever, they trust us; there’s a sense of trust when you buy a whole record. It’s like, ‘You know what? I trust these guys enough to buy the whole thing.’ There’s very few artists that I feel that way about; Josh and I have our people that we trust, and to be one of those bands to some people is a really cool feeling.”

Positive though it is, it's clearly a feeling with which Joseph and, to a lesser extent, Dun are still coming to terms, especially since even at their first Bonnaroo, only two years ago, they were tucked off at a smaller hub that Dun seems pretty sure was The Other Stage. Either way, "it was a tent that actually ended up being super-fun," Dun says.

"I don’t think there’s ever been, like, a real complaint about playing in a tent. We enjoy that. But I think just playing two years ago, going from one of those side stages to a main stage, it kind of shows us that people are listening to the music and it’s resonating in such a way that they’re interested in watching us perform, which is encouraging."

"Yeah, I will say, two years ago, when we played Bonnaroo for the first time, it was one of the side stages and we were opening, so it was like one of the first bands on that stage, and I remember being extremely nervous, like, ‘No one’s going to know who we are’, or ‘No one’s even going to be there,’ and we were pleasantly surprised at how many people knew who we were and how many people ended up trying to fit in that tent, so it was a cool moment," Joseph agrees. 

"Now, here we are again two years later, you know, it feels like everything’s going great but I’ll tell you what: right before we take the stage, Josh and I are gonna think that same thing: ‘No one’s going to know who we are’ and ‘No one’s going to be there’, so honestly, we have to fight those two things every time we play a festival and every time we play live music, so we’ll see how it turns out today… I still don’t think anyone’s going to show up."

Although they don't know it at the time of our chat, their set at Bonnaroo will end up being a highlight of the festival — the pair's energy, chemistry and dedication on-stage is second-to-none, their audience simply rapturous (and ravenous) after every breakdown, key change, costume change, crowd-surf, piano leap and other feats of athleticism that should be beyond the physical grasp of someone belting out pitch-perfect melodies and rapid-fire rhymes in the process.

Reflecting on this dichotomy between the reality of their shows and their self-image, it's easy to see how special Dun and Joseph are as personalities in the music business; it becomes evident that perhaps the reason they are so readily trusted by their fans is that they are genuine guys — soft-spoken, friendly, thoughtful both, so it's perhaps a little remarkable that the pair have managed to succeed so effortlessly in an industry renowned for its cynicism and cutthroat ways.

"[The industry is] so focused on trying to accomplish that part of music that they forget how powerful travelling and playing live shows in front of people is."

“When the industry’s trying to break a band, the first thing they do is they try to find a single and they try to go to radio and they try to create an audience in that way, and I feel like the focus is so — it works; it does work — but it’s so focused on trying to accomplish that part of music that they forget how powerful travelling and playing live shows in front of people is,” Joseph explains.

“You know, that’s a captive audience, that’s a group of people who are there to listen to everything you have to say and everything you’re gonna do, and we’ve just been really intentional about kind of taking advantage of those moments, and so I feel like we just played in front of a bunch of people who were like, ‘You know what? They worked hard for us, they wanted to put on a show, they didn’t take their time on stage for granted,’ and I think people appreciate that hard work. I feel like it kinda happened maybe a different route than maybe some people are used to with heavy airplay and stuff like that.”

Part of that deep respect for their time on stage — indeed, their wider work ethic, which belies their relative youth — undoubtedly comes from the fact that Twenty One Pilots are, in every sense, a self-made band, pulling themselves up on their own merits while juggling menial jobs and rural isolation growing up in Ohio. Not that they lament their past by any stretch — if anything, their situation forced them to put in extra effort to hone their craft, knocking out two independent, self-released albums — 2009's self-titled first LP, with Joseph and a different line-up, and 2011 follow-up Regional At Best, which saw the introduction of Dun — before they achieved wider renown with their Fueled By Ramen debut, Vessel, in 2013.

"You know, it still blows my mind that people release an album — their first album — on a major label," Joseph marvels. "I don’t understand how — like, what did you do to get in that position? You just started, ‘You know what? I’m gonna start writing songs!’ and then some label’s like, ‘All right! We’ll sign you!’ It just — that doesn’t make any sense at all! You have to prove yourself, you have to try to do it on your own first.

"I’m still just surprised that every band doesn’t have these, like, hidden records that they tried to do by themselves that are probably terribly mixed and horribly put-together but probably still exist."

"I like that we’ve had to do that — whether or not you wanna call [the 2009 and 2011 releases], like, ‘releasing a record’ — I mean, if you were there for the marketing plan for these records, it’s just like, ‘Oh, we’re done demoing out 14 songs, let’s put ‘em all out and put ‘em on the internet! Oh, OK, we can make some CDs too while we’re at it,’ and we just did that twice before we were able to do it on a global level. So I’m still just surprised that every band doesn’t have these, like, hidden records that they tried to do by themselves that are probably terribly mixed and horribly put-together but probably still exist, so I guess it’s just a part of our history."

And, if nothing else, at least those years of struggle have helped them appreciate the position they now find themselves in as world-touring, full-time musicians.

"At the time [of the early releases], I worked for a moving company, like, I valeted cars for a little bit, I worked at a music store," Dun recalls, "because … I didn’t go to college and I grew up in Columbus, Ohio — so I’m like ‘How do I play music?’ and I was like, ‘I guess musicians come into music stores, so I can maybe try and figure that out,’ so I worked there for a little bit and really just… even when were kinda going out and playing shows and stuff, we worked throughout the week; Tyler worked a catering company and some other stuff, and then we’d play on the weekends.

"So, for us, being able to quit those jobs and make this our main thing and main priority was a huge moment in our lives," the drummer continues. "Even now, sometimes when we’ll be in this moment of complaining about something, or wishing something was a little bit different, I’ll look back to getting up at 5am and going and moving fireproof safes from a basement to another office building or something in the middle of winter. So I’m like, ‘This isn’t bad at all. This is great.’"

Ultimately, the sum experience has to be viewed as a positive — after all, if every choice we've ever made has led us to the point at which we've arrived, you couldn't really fault the choices that Joseph and Dun have made, professionally or creatively. And, with those self-made records and self-learnt lessons — not to mention the success of their do-over debut (to a wider audience, on a label) with Vessel — behind them, it's unsurprising that Blurryface has seen the success that it has to date, even without heavy radio support. 

Although the record maintains the hallmarks of earlier releases — Joseph's sharp, wordplay-heavy raps, Dun's frantic, meticulous percussion, the persistent pop sensibility, the dalliances in genre-mashing — it's clear that the latest release is a work of progress, of evolution; new sounds and influences permeate the album's 14 tracks as Joseph intermittently makes explicit references to the trials and travails of newfound success in the industry — most notably in the 'biz'-focused Lane Boy, which Joseph demarcates as "one of my favourites on the record" that is swiftly "turning into one of my favourites to play live".

As it happens, that song is a perfect encapsulation of Twenty One Pilots' subscription to doing it their way or no way at all — as Joseph lyrically laments being told to "stay in [his] lane" by industry figures, the song flips the bird to that exact notion by switching up reggae and electronic break-beats in a wonderful example of thematic and narrative confluence. Which, as it turns out, is a direct result of Joseph and Dun's studious approach to writing their tunes.

"I like to believe we’re pretty deliberate guys, and everything we do is for a reason, but at the same time, when you listen to the record as a whole — we never set out to, ‘OK, hey, let’s try to make each song as different as we can make it, let’s make it something that is hard to follow, or let’s try to hit every genre that we can’; That was never the intention," Joseph says. "Truthfully, when we think about writing a record, we just wanna put a bunch of songs on there that we like listening to, that we enjoy — a record that we would want to have and to dive into. I don’t know if it’s a testament to just the day and age where we have access to every different style of music and… I don’t know, for a band to pick a genre and say, ‘This is the type of song we’re going to be playing and writing for the rest of our career,’ just doesn’t sound very interesting to me.

"But at the same time, once you get into the song and start writing it, you kinda have to let it go wherever it goes. You kinda put your hands back and see where you end up and then you realise, ‘Whoa! I’m all the way over here!... OK, let’s start a new one.’"

As easy as he makes it sound, however, Joseph and Dun still have to very much consciously make the choice as to when exactly to let a song go; when it's time to actually put those hands back and take stock of where they've arrived.

"It is endless," Joseph laments. "I mean, Josh and I listen to demos and we could go this way with it, we could go that way with it, we could change this sound, and you really have to force yourself to stop. And that’s one of the ways I feel like that we’ve matured as artists — we had to learn to have self-control, because there’s no… it’s endless, the possibilities out there, and so we like to kind of start to dive into that abyss, but we have to, at the same time, create a chain and hold hands, and one guy’s holding onto the cliff, and so we have to come back and kinda find a structure that makes sense to the song."

It's not just the individual structure of a piece that needs to make sense, either; it needs to fit with the wider context of what surrounds it — or doesn't. As a case in point, in discussing why album opener Heavydirtysoul, along with follow-up Stressed Out, is one of the pair's favourite tracks to play live — "now I'm sad that they're some of the first ones in the set because then we get 'em over with so quickly," Dun sighs — Joseph hints that part and parcel of that affection is to do with its place in the track and set lists.

"There’s something about opening up; a band that doesn’t… I just feel like it’s such an important moment in the set — you set the tone for the rest of the set, you just gotta come out swinging," Joseph says emphatically. "And Heavydirtysoul’s what we’re opening up with this run; it’s fun to play that song, I gravitate towards that song, because I gravitate towards the feeling of, about to take the stage and I’m nervous and maybe a little doubtful or insecure about whether or not it’s gonna go well, and then to come out and play that song and utilise that song to kinda get over those feelings, you grow attached to it, almost like a security blanket, so Heavydirtysoul for me is standing out as one of my favourites."

Now, Australian fans get to experience the song's glory — and that of the whole live set — as the band touch down for their eagerly awaited tour of the country, their third in two years, kicking off in Brisbane this Saturday. And we shouldn't underestimate how lucky we are to be having them as guests again, not only because of the entertainment they bring, but because by Dun's own admission, Joseph isn't much one for, you know, leaving the house.

“Tyler’s the kind of guy who will, like… he just loves to be in his house,” Dun says. “It takes a lot to get him to leave. And the first time we were there, I remember, he turned to me, he was like, ‘I could live here at some point in my life.’ I knew Australia was a cool place at that point.”

Despite how far they've come, in some ways, there are still echoes — in their self-doubt, their humility, their awe of where they've found themselves — of the younger, less assured two-piece who first came to our shores a couple of years back, tucked under the wing of US labelmates Paramore. However, Joseph and Dun say, that relationship itself — and the support of Paramore frontwoman Hayley Williams — was instrumental in bringing Twenty One Pilots down here in the first place, let alone for their third time in such a short time span, as well as teaching them invaluable lessons for their own careers.

"As competitive guys, we want to be like, ‘Let’s make fans and keep ‘em all to ourselves and don’t listen to any other music!’ and that’s just not healthy, and that’s not how it works."

"Right away, probably two or three days after we signed, she tweeted something about that, Hayley did, so she’s really been supportive since the beginning, and … we’ve played with them a couple of times, and it’s cool, just kind of the support that they’ve given us," Dun says. "And we’ve always kind of really looked up to a band like that, who’s been around for a while and, I think, just totally stayed true to exactly what they wanted from the beginning, even through some kinda crazy stuff happening with their band. They’re still doing what they’ve done from the beginning, and they haven’t really changed that, and that’s something encouraging for us to see, because you don’t see that a lot, I don’t think. It’s been a cool relationship that’s kind of just formed with that. It’s nice to just have comrades in the music world that you can kind of just partner up with."

"Yeah, there’s definitely a like-mindedness between our camp and their camp, just the way that they approach live music and putting on a show," Joseph agrees. "We’ve learned a lot from them, like how to treat younger bands — I mean, they treated us so well, they were very nice — and honestly I don’t know if we’d have any sort of footprint in Australia if it weren’t for them bringing us along and showing us the ropes and letting us use their tour that they did to get in front of people, and them saying things like, ‘You know what, try and make as many fans as you can’.

"And that’s tough for us, you know, for Josh and I; as competitive guys, we want to be like, ‘Let’s make fans and keep ‘em all to ourselves and don’t listen to any other music!’ and that’s just not healthy, and that’s not how it works, so they kind of showed us how to treat an opening band well."

This time, though, Twenty One Pilots hit Australia backed by the weight of their own popularity and merits, as sell-out-worthy headliners with a cracking album to inform their latest live performances. And, pleasantly, it's not just those of us Down Under who are stoked with the opportunity to have them spend some time in our country — that's a door that definitely swings both ways.

"Growing up, watching movies or TV from Australia … it always kind of felt like it was a fictional thing, where it was kind of like the moon or something."

"It’s such a beautiful country," Dun gushes of their imminent tour destination. "It would just be amazing for, if nothing else, just an extended vacation, to come and just hang. We talked about it before too, because… we’re so far away from each other, being in the States, so always growing up, watching movies or TV from Australia … it always kind of felt like it was a fictional thing, where it was kind of like the moon or something, so when we finally went there, we were like, ‘This place is real!’ We went and actually saw some of the indigenous animals to your country too, and pet some koalas and kangaroos and stuff … I still want to climb the Harbour Bridge. It's something to cross off the list."

"It was a cool experience," Joseph adds, "and like Josh said, I would much rather be home than anywhere else, but it was one of the first places I was like, ‘This is cool. I like this place.’ I like the way people treat each other and I like the way that they gravitate towards music. It’s a really cool culture.

"We’re bringing some guys on the crew that have never been before. I love the idea of bringing some of these guys who have joined the crew recently or maybe weren’t able to make it over on the last trip, to kind of pretend like I’m an expert, and be like, ‘Oh, this is where you go here, and you should do this on your off day and you should go check this out,’ when really I have no idea what I’m talking about, but to them, I know all things about Australia.

"So I like the idea of taking guys that have only kind of lived in that state or that country and showing them somewhere else, and Australia’s the first place I would want to take them."


Blurryface is out now via Warner Music Australia.